Star Wars

[Ponyone]

Goose and I have now seen the movie, so lets open up discussion now that we've all seen it!!

Thoughts/Questions:


I agree with Snake, that this is right there with ROTJ in the Star Wars saga. Definetely better than AOTC, and way better the The Phantom Menace.


I thought that pretty much everything was explained and the new trilogy tied in with the old pefectly.


Questions/Opinions:
Here are a few, and what I think:

How does Leah remember her mother?

Answer: Because Leah remembers her adopted mother and that is who she speaks of in ROTJ.


Who is Anakin's father?

Answer: Sidious explains to Anakin that his master, Darth Plageous discovered the power to create life and I think he is the one who created Anakin.


What's up with Greviuos' cough?

Answer: He is part human. I dont know who all noticed but you see a human heart in his metal frame in a few parts.


I think that everything really fits together well that C3PO had his memory swiped, but not R2. This is why R2 goes and finds Obiwan in Star Wars. He says in Star Wars that he doesnt ever remember owning a droid, not knowing it.


I thought it was really cool how Sidious got deformed in his duel with Mace. I had always thought that he looked like that when he was Sidious, and that he appeared normal as Palpatine.


I do wish that Anakin had explained more to Obiwan in their end duel. For all Obiwan knows, Anakin just went nuts and turned to the Dark Side. Anakin never explained to him about trying to save Padme or anything else really.


Earl was right, Anakins transformation and loyalty to the Emperor was kind of sudden. He went from trying to cover up the incident with Mace and Sidious, to slaughtering younglings and killing everything in sight in a matter of half an hour. But how else could you do it I guess?


A lot of people are complaining about the whole timeline thing, and why Obiwan is so old in Star Wars. Well, I thought he looked late 30's, if not 40 in the movie - so flash forward 20 years to Star Wars, and it's pretty much right. He was no older than 60 or 65 in that movie.


The acting was much, much improved in this movie, especially with Padme and Anakin.


I think that after seeing this movie, and this actually goes back to Earl's question on who is the most important character of all the films?

It would definetely have to be Obiwan. He was the greatest hero of any of the films in Revenge Of The Sith, and if not for him, then Luke and Leah would have never had the chance to have been born. Plus he was just bad-ass in all the movies. I'll have a new found respect for Obiwan when I watch the original trilogy again.


I'm glad they at least touched on the whole Jedi coming back from the other side thing, and that Obiwan was going to learn how to do it.


The ending was definetely one of the most tragic and just down right sad endings of any movie period. It was all well done though, and I was actually happy when it all was over and tied together. It made me want to go watch the original trilogy right away.


I'm sure other things will come up but this is a start.
Excellent movie.

[stallion]

Got to agree with you, Pone. It was a great movie. I just can't shake the feeling that there are more movies coming. That money just keeps pouring in. Granted, the saga of Anakin/Vader has come full circle, but there will always be a demand for more. One thing I noticed, and I'm probably nitpicking, but how did Obi-Wan know that Anakin survived their fight? He left him to die by the lava and escaped. He had no knowledge that the Emperor revived Anakin and outfitted him with the black suit. Yet in "A New Hope", he knows who Vader is when they fight aboard the Death Star. I can only assume that since Anakin was Darth Vader before their fight, and Darth Vader becomes the legendary Sith lord "feared throughout the galaxy" or at least East New Market, Obi-Wan knows what became of him from others. Then again, he's shacked up in a cave somewhere. Perhaps it is the Force? I dunno. Another thing-I can't remember if Luke's aunt and uncle were related to the Skywalkers or Obi-Wan. To me, it would seem kind of dumb that, knowing he has a kid and that he has family on Tattoine, Vader never bothered to look there for Luke. Obviously he would be of great interest to Vader and the Emperor as a heir to the Empire, as evidenced in TESB/ROTJ. Not to mention Luke's running around with the Skywalker name. It's not like Skywalker is the Star Wars equivalent of the surname "Smith". And, as Columbo would say, one last thing-going back to the original trilogy, if Leia (not Leah, Pone, she's not Leah Mastandrea, which would have been pretty damn funny-a slobbering, fat-lipped princess babbling nonsense and eating used chewing gum) always knew Luke was her brother, why did she kiss him on two separate occasions? That's kind of sick. Perhaps the Skywalkers originated from Alabama or West Virginia? "A long, long time ago in a trailer park far away....." I know I'm nitpicking, but I do have a tendency to do that. Any answers?

[LotB]

So which main character was originally slated to die in ROTJ? No one ever answered.

Who thinks the phrase "Return of the Jedi" is referring to the return of Anakin Skywalker? Who thinks it refers to the return of the Jedi Order as Luke becomes a Jedi? Maybe both...

Now that I've seen ROTS, I have quite a few thoughts, but not time to go into detail on everything.

The first thing that comes to mind is that we never did learn what Obi-wan told Luke's aunt and uncle. Did he say that Luke was an orphan and that his parents had been killed in the Clone Wars, or did he tell them the truth about Anakin becoming Vader and killing Padme? Did he tell them about Leia? Do Owen and Beru know that Luke could be the galaxy's last hope as only one "strong in the Force" can defeat the Sith?

To answer a previous post, Luke's "uncle" Owen is Anakin's stepbrother that he met only once that we know of, that taking place in Episode II when Anakin goes searching for his mother, and finds that Owen's father has freed his mother and married her. They're of no blood relation to the Skywalker twins. Now Padme's family on Naboo is of course blood-related to Luke and Leia, but neither of the twins could be left with them as it would make their discovery all too easy. Great efforts were taken to make Padme still appear pregnant before she was interred. We know that both of Padme's parents are alive, and that she has at least one sister who has children of her own. I don't know whether or not Luke and Leia ever got to meet any of them in the "expanded universe" of novels, comics, etc. that flesh out the story beyond Episode VI. The book also explains why Obi-wan and Yoda didn't just raise the two themselves, to be trained in the Jedi arts from birth which is their traditional way. Especially because Anakin was the only Jedi to have been taken in and trained after living ten years in the "real world," and look at how he turned out.

I must say that it is truly tragic how much of what happened in the novelization got cut from the finished movie. The book featured a lot more development of characters and plot; all stuff that Lucas cut from the finished film purportedly for concerns about the running time. Considering what this film is, I doubt anyone would have objected to it being 3 hours long, but oh well. The movie was still pretty awesome, but what was left in the released version was only that necessary to keep the story going.

In the novel, there was some good dialogue between Palpatine/Sidious, Dooku, Obi-wan, and Anakin in that rescue sequence. Of particular interest was a conversation between the two Sith Lords prior to the Jedi bursting into the room. There was in fact more cool dialogue that elaborated on things more all throughout the story, and made Anakin's turn to the Dark Side a little more gradual and explainable.

It was reinforced that the Jedi are not allowed to own anything, and that Sidious spent time trying to teach Anakin that he could be free, think for himself, and own his own speeder, spaceship, real estate, what-have-you. That it would be okay for Anakin to abandon the Jedi Council's interests in favor of his own, which included having a family and not having to hide his marriage. Remember that Anakin was a slave prior to becoming a Jedi, so he honestly has no concept of these things that we too often take for granted, like freedom of choice and a life without doctrine. It never really occured to him that he could use his powers to his own benefit and that of those he cared about. The Sith endorse that sort of thing whereas the Jedi endorse letting go of everything you love, therefore you won't feel anything when people die. The only thing left of all that in the movie is a talk between Anakin and Yoda about premonitions where Anakin realizes that Yoda really doesn't have a clue as to how a person can be saved from death, or what it is like to be "in love," and a talk between Anakin and Palpatine in the theater where Anakin says [paraphrased] that "The Jedi are selfless, and care only about others, while the Sith look inward and care about their own desires."

What painfully got edited out was the talk between Sidious and Yoda before they started duelling. I was very much looking forward to seeing that in a theater, only to find it got chopped. The full conversation between Padme, Anakin, and Obi-wan right at the very end would have been nice to have seen on-screen as well. Going back to earlier in the movie, there was a conversation between Obi-wan and Padme prior to his leaving to pursue General Grievous that got cut completely out of the film. Especially noteworthy was the missing conversation between the Chancellor and the four Jedi Masters who had come to arrest him, during which he masterfully guided the conversation while recording the whole thing so that it sounded like, without a doubt, that the Jedi were there to assassinate him. The Senate heard it all exactly as it transpired, not knowing that if they'd seen the visual, they'd have been treated to good ol' Sidious slaying Jedi with remarkable skill. Mace Windu even said something like "You're under arrest," Palpatine asked why, Mace responded"You're a Sith," to which the Chancellor replied along the lines of, "So what if I am. My philosophical/religious beliefs being not the same as yours are not a reason to murder me. I am guaranteed those freedoms by the Republic that I believe in and that you traitors are out to conquer."

I guess my biggest complaint is how the movie made Sidious out to look more like a pussy. In the book, which was 100% faithful to the story George Lucas originally wrote, Sidious quite capably kicked the asses of the Jedi Masters he faced. The impression was given that he only "lost" to Mace Windu as part of his plan to recruit Anakin, sacrificing his facial appearance in the process. Sidious was also very much shown to be more powerful than Yoda, whom he bested without a hell of a lot of difficulty. The movie of course altered it so that it looked like Sidious was trying to run, with Yoda blocking the hallway, and later Sidious trying to put distance between himself and Yoda amongst the floating chairs of the Senate, then sending the guards to kill Yoda. In the book, Sidious did not chase the fleeing Yoda down and finish him off only because he had sensed that Darth Vader was in mortal danger, which was confirmed by Yoda who revealed that Obi-wan had been sent to slay Vader. Rushing to the Mustafar system to aid Vader was Sidious's utmost priority.

Along the lines of the great "Han Solo shooting first" controversy, word on the street is that George altered Sidious's portrayal right towards the very end of the editing process because he didn't want to send the message that evil is stronger than good or some such Hollywood hippie bullshit. Most everyone will say that the movie is canon while the book is not, but remember that the book was read over and over again by George Lucas, and that George read the finished book before it was sent to the printers. I read an interview with the author who tells in great detail how he wrote the book only from the script, and how much he and George Lucas interacted. So the book is the story that was intended to be told right up until the last few edits.

I guess I don't really need to say that I recommend everyone go read the book to get the full scope of the tale. Believe it or not, I have even more thoughts, but I need to go on to do something else now.

[LotB]

I forgot to point out that the Jedi always try to take the Sith 2-on-1, or even 4-on-1 in the case of the attempted arrest of Darth Sidious. Actions like that pretty much show that the Jedi know disciples of the Dark Side are more powerful than they are.

[LotB]

Also in the book but not the movie:

During the ride back to Coruscant with Yoda after being picked up by Senator Organa, Obi-wan keeps thinking about Anakin and that he must have been killed along with the other Jedi defending the Temple. He struggles not to mourn while Yoda reminds him that Jedi don't get attached and to let go of his feelings. When they're in the Jedi Temple peering at the numerous bodies of younglings and experienced Jedi Knights and Masters who've been slain by lightsaber, Obi-wan says, "I'll learn who did this!" Yoda responds, "Learn, you say? Already know, you do."
Obi-wan still refuses to believe and goes to hunt down the security footage so he can see for himself. Call it a classic case of denial.

The aforementioned got cut down to the minimum required to establish that Obi-wan and Yoda had discovered younglings slain by lightsaber.

In the movie we get only a scene where Yoda tells Obi-wan that he'll find only pain in the security holograms which after viewing results in Obi-wan looking all distraught and saying "I can't watch anymore."

I just thought the lines mentioned in the book were pretty cool and should have been kept along with a lot of other bits.

[LotB]

Since I just can't keep myself from this thread...

I forgot to mention that in the book, it sounds like Obi-wan just got real damn lucky and that the Force was on his side when he managed to defeat Anakin who was very clearly the better swordsman. In the movie, it was made to appear that Anakin's arrogance defeated him. Whatever, I still say that the Sith are more powerful than the Jedi. They can wield the full scope of Force powers, while the Jedi limit themselves to a "safe" range.

[MASON]

Interesting article LOtB. Now for my take. I truly believe that Obi-Wan would have heard about Darth Vader during his twenty year hiatus, so he knows who he is. My question: Darth Vader is told that he killed Padme. If this is true, how can Darth Vader not question Luke's birth? In Episode V, Lord Vader reveals to Luke who his father is. Wouldn't you be asking the question to yourself "How do I have a son, if I killed the mother BEFORE she was able to give birth?" Perhaps Vader finally realizes this in Episode VI when he saves Luke. Very interesting.

As for the TV show, it would be great to fill in the gaps between Episodes III and IV. Possibly the formation of the Rebellion with the Organa's fighting back against the Empire. It would have action, and no use of the Force, since the young Jedi and only babies.

LOtB, Anakin's blindness to the Darkside clouded his judgement, and that is why he lost. Obi-Wan had the high ground and warned him. Anakin was ignorant. Also, why does Anakin choke Padme? It seemed totally against his character. Also, his accepting the Dark Side was like "Yeah, I'll help you out as long as you help out Padme." Which was odd since he choked the one person he chose the Dark Side for. I never really saw any change in the overall character as well. Darth Vader seemed to be the same person as Anakin Skywalker. There was very little difference in the tone of his voice. I envisioned him to be a completely different person. Evil. Vader performs evil actions, but still seems to talk like he did in Episode II and the beginning of III.

Also, the dialogue between Anakin and Padme in the beginning is horrible. Caticus explained that Lucas can not write romantic scripts, which is true. Also, the ending of the movie felt rushed. Padme gives birth and looks at her child. "Luke...Luke...Leia...Leia" Now it's time to die. Also, Organa (we all know he's taking Leia) "I'll take the girl. My wife and I have been talking about adopting a baby girl." Very rushed.
Interesting story line. Mrs. Organa becomes pregnant, and dies in Child Birth for the TV show, showing why Leia said in VI that her mother always seemed sad. Or, Lucas messed that scene up.

[MASON]

Getting back to the Vader/Anakin thing, in IV, Obi-Wan explains that Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force and hunted down and murdered Luke's father. That is why I envision a complete change of character. Hayden did not deliver that for me.

[LotB]

Ma$e - Yes, I don't have any doubts that Obi-wan would have heard of the feared Lord Vader's exploits during his exile. He may have even just sensed that Vader was still alive. The Force works in mysterious ways, you know. But word traveled around as even young Luke growing-up on an independent Outer Rim planet knew of the Empire and disdained it. We know that Tattooine is a planet full of spaceports; places like that always have gossip. Even living out in a remote hut, Obi-wan had to have encountered travellers or gone into town for supplies and heard news from time to time. Also remember that Yoda had been using the Force to watch Luke and Leia from afar, and that Obi-wan and Yoda had learned to communicate with dead Jedi like Qui-Gonn (which wasn't specifically shown in the movie but only briefly mentioned), so there were ways he could have acquired the information without setting foot outside his home. And I'm sure he knew that Vader wasn't dead yet when he flew away from Mustafar in Padme's ship. I'm also sure he knew exactly who Leia was the instant he saw R2-D2 display her hologram. I don't remember whether it was clearly stated in the end of the movie or not, but the plan of Obi-wan and Yoda was to "lay low" and wait, because the Force would bring the twins to them when the time was right.

I don't think Vader ever had any doubts about Luke being his son. His visions of Padme dying in childbirth are pretty much what got the ball rolling on his trip to the Dark Side. In those visions of the future he was never able to clearly see what happened to the baby, only that Padme was dying and Obi-wan was there encouraging her to live. It wouldn't be a stretch to think that she died giving birth due to the injuries he inflicted, and she was definitely with Obi-wan the last time Vader had known her to be alive. Also, if she had died right there on Mustafar the baby still could have lived if removed rapidly enough. It happens in reality when pregnant women are killed in car accidents and such and paramedics swiftly remove the baby right on the side of the road. Also remember that as the newly-suited Vader is told he killed Padme, he says something like, "No! She was alive! I sensed it!" From that he probably figured that she indeed did die giving birth just like he'd foreseen.

That aside, he could have just sensed that Luke was his son. He already knew it to be true and was actively seeking Luke before the Emperor told him "I have no doubt that this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker," and he pretended to be astonished saying "How is that possible?" when he was already planning to try and recruit Luke to defeat the Emperor and "rule the galaxy as father and son." I don't know if you ever watched the most recent DVD version of Episode V but that's where Lucas slipped in Ian McDiaramid as Sidious and altered the wording enough in that scene that you could understand the story as he intended it.

Aren't prophecies just fucked-up? Anakin forsaw Padme dying in childbirth, and by taking actions to prevent it he actually caused it to happen. Let's especially not forget the prophecy that Anakin is the "Chosen One" who will "bring balance to the Force" which he of course does by wiping out the Jedi then swinging back and in the last few moments of his life wiping out the Sith, leaving the galaxy with scarcely anyone even following the ways of the Force. That'll balance it, alright.

It's correct that Lucas has never been able to right any sort of romance/love scene, IMHO.

My only misgivings about the television series taking place between Episodes III & IV is that we won't get treated to any badassed lightsaber battles, with the only lightsaber users alive then that we know of being Yoda, Obi-wan, Darth Sidious and Darth Vader. They none will be a part of the series as it won't be involving any of the major characters who come back into play years later. Though I'm sure some of their names will be mentioned, especially Vader's and the Emperor's. It is possible they could find a feasible way to introduce more Force-users, I suppose. Since we've been told the show will involve lesser characters that we've already seen, it could end up being "The Adventures of Young Boba Fett" or "Lando Calrissian, Space Gambler." Maybe it'll just be about the Ewoks, haha. At least George wants an entire season's episodes written before they even start filming. That should ensure a solid storyline without inconsistencies. I guess we're just going to have to wait and see. Let's just hope there aren't any concerns over the length of the running time or scenes that make "evil" seem stronger than "good."

As for what you said about the story seeming rushed at certain points, like at the end, that's exactly what I was getting at when I said they should have left in all of the development stuff that made it into the book and not the finished movie, and just allowed the movie to be 3 hours long. Like I said before, George left only what was necessary to keep the story going in the finished film, resulting in the "rushed" effect that you experienced, and the unbelievably swift turn to the Dark Side that we saw with Anakin. I never envisioned Anakin and Darth Vader seeming all that much different from one another. Look at guys like Ted Bundy, or David Berkowitz. They seemed like your average everyday men. There was nothing on the outside that screamed "serial killer." The real "Dark Side" exists in one's mind.

[Üncle Snake]

It didn't feel rushed to me. A lot has to happen, and that momentum, that urgency is a big part of what made it so good. I don't see Anakin's change as too sudden, either. His frustration with the Jedi Council spans years. During that time, Palpatine was the only one who consistently treated him with respect. He's been more of a father to him than anyone else. And remember that it's love, his desire to save Padme, that ultimately leads Anakin to his decision.

As far the comparisons between the book and the movie, the book may have been based on Lucas' script, but he always uses the script just as a blueprint for the finished film. I think it was in the recent Entertainment Weekly story where Lucas said his attitude was "I'll find the movie in post." Not the smartest way to make a movie, but it worked out for him this time.

[MASON]

I disagree Snake. I will watch the movie again, (midnight is not the best of time to see a movie) and judge it all over again, but Anakin's turn to the Dark Side was conveinent and not essential. I thought it would be one great moment where he would have a choice like in Episode VI where he had the choice to save his son or let him die.

In Episode III, as soon as he defeats Ma$e Windu, he sits down, horrified over what he has done. Anakin feels guilty, he is still a Jedi at that moment and not a Sith. Then he basically says, "Yeah, I'll help you, just save Padme." That is not exactly a moment. If I had written it, I would have had Mace Windu accusing Anakin of being in league with Darth Sidious. Anakin would have been angry (Dark Side) and would have made the choice. Perhaps Mace would have threatened to arrest him too. Remember, Anakin did tell Windu that the Emperor must stand trial, the right thing to do, since Anakin is a Jedi after all.

As for Episodes IV-VI, I have not seen them since 1999 because I know that I would have looked upon them in a whole new light after I-III. That is why I have waited all these years. After I go back and watch these again, I will also give some info.

[Üncle Snake]

The point is that the decision isn't made in one single moment. If it was, THAT would be sudden. Everything that comes before it in Episodes I and II, and the first half of Episode III builds up to it.

[Üncle Snake]

We can go back and forth on this forever, but it's really just a movie, no matter how seriously so many people take it. Besides, there's a better one coming out in September. Just look at the banner that's in every one of my posts.

[muthagoose]

Starting to think Snake owns stock in the Serenity franchise.

[CaticusRex]

He does

[The Duke]

Just returned from Star Wars Weekends at Disney World. It was amazing, and I got to meet Peter Mayhew, the man behind CHewbacca. More details later.

[stallion]

Just my opinion, but I find it hard to believe that a movie based on a failed Fox TV show will be better than Star Wars. Not to say the movie will suck, but that is a pretty bold statement there, Maki.

[Ponyone]

George Lucas' devotion to timeless storytelling and cutting-edge innovation has resulted in some of the most successful and beloved films of all time. His contribution to the film industry is being recognized by the American Film Institute with the 2005 AFI Life Achievement Award.

Filmmaker and past Life Achievement Award recipient Steven Spielberg presented Lucas with the award during a gala presentation at the Kodak Theatre in Los Angeles on June 9, 2005. Recorded exclusively for USA Network, the evening features tributes from a number of Lucas' friends and colleagues, with guests including past Life Achievement Award recipients Tom Hanks and Harrison Ford, as well as Francis Ford Coppola, Richard Dreyfuss, Robert Duvall, Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher, Billy Dee Williams, and Jimmy Smits, plus appearances by intergalactic celebrities C3PO, Chewbacca, and R2D2 and a musical performance by Maroon 5. Additionally, clips from Lucas' films will be presented along with commentary from four Academy Award winning directors: Spielberg, James Cameron, Ron Howard, and Peter Jackson.

THE 33rd AFI LIFE ACHIEVEMENT AWARD: A TRIBUTE TO GEORGE LUCAS is executive produced and written by Bob Gazzale and directed and co-produced by Louis J. Horvitz.


www.usanetwork.com/specials/georgelucas/

[The Duke]

Trivia of the day" (it's back):

What is the name of the man who was the "keeper" of the creature that Luke fought in Jabba's palace in Return of the Jedi?

[MASON]

Who cares?

Snake, we shall have to have our great debate sometime in the future.

[The Duke]

No one cares, I just figured it'd be a fun piece of trivia. Guess I was wrong.

[muthagoose]

I was waiting for the answer.

Mason was being an ass.

[stallion]

Damn, Mason, that was kind of rude. You should be nicer to your friends lest you end up in the Choptank wearing cement shoes or face down in the back alley trash with a cucumber in your ass. WESTSIDE!

[The Duke]

Answer: Malakili.

Question: What false title did Lucas use when filming Return of the Jedi?

I don't see Ma$on as being as ass, I just felt as if he was speaking his opinion, and/or speaking the truth. However, Duke's useless trivia will live on! Yessssirrr!!!!!!

[stallion]

Wait-I actually know this one-Revenge of the Jedi. The close proximity of release dates between the film and Star Trek 2 led Paramount to change Trek's title to "Wrath of Khan" rather than the planned "Revenge of Khan" to avoid confusion. Lucas claimed that "a true Star Wars fan would know that a Jedi would never seek revenge and that the title was bogus". Uh, how would anyone know that? There had only been two movies and I don't recall anyone saying Jedis were prohibited from seeking revenge. More pompous bullshit from Lucas.